Paul Kirch—The Askology Method: How to Win Bigger Deals by Asking Better Questions

Paul Kirch  0:00  
What you said there is very, very, very powerful, because when you get a yes from somebody on something like that, you now have permission, getting their permission to talk about your solutions, getting permission to share why they should trust you. My goal in every situation is to get to the point where they have given me permission to help them.

David Bush  0:22  
Welcome to the Business Builders playbook, the show that breaks down the systems and strategies behind Predictable Revenue Growth to win in business. In each episode, we're diving into the proven strategies that separate the winners who scale from the losers who fail. This show is sponsored by bdr.ai the AI powered business development platform that automates your outbound prospecting so you can focus in on closing deals instead of chasing leads. Let's get started. Well, welcome everybody to the show. This is David bush, and I am excited to be able to introduce you to my friend Paul Kirch. Paul is an amazing askologist. He has got it nailed down in terms of developing the science of asking the best questions to win bigger and better deals faster and easier than you've done it before and I've I've asked Paul to come into the show today so that I can put him on the hot spot, because I'm going to ask the questions that the registrants for this particular event asked me because they wanted to know these particular answers to the questions that I'm about to share with you today. So Paul, I'm ready to get into the conversation, but before we do that, would you just let everybody know a little bit about your background and kind of where your education, expertise and experience has brought you here as we have this conversation.

Paul Kirch  1:44  
Yeah, thanks. I have an interesting background. I spent about 26 years in the marketing research industry, and I started off in operations working for the Gallup organization, and at one point I thought, well, you know, I want to start my own business, but I wasn't really to do it. I i love the security of a paycheck. And I thought, well, sales is the closest thing to an entrepreneurial role without having to give up that paycheck. And so I started moving into sales and and it really was a great fit for me. I fell in love with it, had a great mentor, and just over time, I realized that, you know, something that I used to think you had to talk your way into business, and I like to talk. And I found that the more I asked questions, the more I listened, the more that people actually engaged and responded. Then over time, I became a sales leader and started mentoring others, and then started my own company in 2009 and and so that's just really kind of been what led me down this path. And quite frankly, I, like I said, I like to talk, but I found that if I asked good questions and learned to listen, which was a hard lesson, I could actually get people to respond and interact and pay attention to me. And so that's kind of where I am today,

David Bush  3:02  
yeah, and it's so important, and it's probably one of the most known skills, but the most underutilized skills. And I'm just curious as to, why do you think that sales professionals, business owners, consultants, coaches, anybody that would feel like that they have something that they want to transfer enthusiasm to gain other people to buy into it. Whether they're actually selling a physical product or service or not, is secondary. But why do you think that they don't take advantage of the idea of asking questions skillfully and listening or reading carefully?

Paul Kirch  3:38  
Well, you know, it's it's interesting. I think a lot of times, we fall in love with our products and services. We get to know them at all levels and the things that really resonate. We're having conversations with our colleagues, and we're like, oh, this is so amazing. You know, the market needs this, and we're out there talking to people, and we have that excitement enthusiasm, but every buying decision takes place at an emotional level, and often we're talking about the bells and whistles, the things that we just kind of know at the base of our heart, it's like, oh, this is why this product so great. But people aren't buying that. They're buying the, you know, the things that are helping them solve their problems. You know, how do we meet payroll, how do we keep our staff happy? How do we make our clients feel satisfied? And often, people that are buying your services are stressed about something that you're not addressing when you're talking and that's why getting to the root of what their challenges are asking the right questions really resonates. And I think a lot of sales people are told to ask questions. But they aren't taught how to ask the right kind of questions. And that's something that askology method I created, it centered around four different question types, which I'm sure we'll talk about before we're done here. That really simplifies the process, allows you to focus, but allows you to really. Drive the conversation in a place that lets you kind of control where things go, not necessarily controlling them, but controlling the conversation in a way that allows you to serve them.

David Bush  5:13  
Yeah, and I've heard the phrase, you know, facts and features tell benefits and stories sell and and some people have even they have an issue with the word sell or sales. But what we're really talking about here is consultative selling, where it's really finding out if the person actually needs, wants, can use and affords our services, and then just simply inviting them to take that next step. It's not being the pushy, slimy person that's trying to convince or manipulate people into something. You're just simply offering services that are a good match for what it is that person needs. So let's talk a little bit about, you know, some of the mistakes that people make when it comes to asking or not asking questions. What would you say is the most common mistake?

Paul Kirch  5:59  
Well, I want to go back to something you just said there, because it really resonates Jeffrey gittemer, who wrote The Little Red Book of Selling and the sales Bible. And he's, you know, well known sales leader. He always says that people hate to be sold, but they love to buy. And I think the reality is, people do love, they do enjoy the buying process, but they hate feeling being pressured into selling. Now through askology method, I coined a phrase I say, if you're telling you're selling and no one wants to be sold, and it's kind of like that same idea that we're we're trying to convince people to buy. And I think the biggest mistake that a lot of sales professionals run into is that they are trying to convince people that they need to buy from me and I need the sale and that and that creates the wrong kind of message. If we can find a way of what their pain points are, their challenges are, or even their excitements are, now we can give them a reason to want to buy from you, and that's what I really, really want. And I think that's the biggest mistake. Is that sometimes we're so focused on getting our products sold that we forget that we need to find a way of making them want to buy from you.

David Bush  7:11  
Yeah, well, I know that there's a lot of questions that we could ask that are more specific to a target audience or demographic, or, you know, qualifying an individual prospect. But is there any specific questions out there that you would say are the wrong questions that could actually lose a deal, or it could lose an opportunity before you ever get the chance of asking some of the right questions?

Paul Kirch  7:38  
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of different examples. I mean, just keeping it from a simple perspective. You know, we always hear people talking about closed ended questions versus open ended questions. If you ask a closed ended question, like a yes, no question, you have to be careful. It doesn't mean you never ask them, because natural conversation you're going to have. Ask them yes, no questions. But if you ask somebody, are you happy with your current supplier? And they say, Yeah, well, where do you go? Even if you have a response to that psychologically, they've kind of given themselves permission to tune you out. Because you've you've now given them permission because, you know, anytime you get in front of somebody that's trying to sell you, there's a mental game that's going on, and if at any point they let you off the hook, it was kind of like this, oh yeah, yeah, I'm really not interested in this. So a question like as simple as, are you happy with your current supplier? And if they say yes, and you have nowhere to go from there, they've already kind of tuned you out. They've already given them permission to realize that, oh, I don't, I don't need this product. This person isn't the right person for me. And anything you say from there is really coming from a place of weakness. So it's hard to recover from some of those situations. And you know, that's just one example. I mean, obviously there are questions you could ask that are, you know, you might create a list of questions, and you're rehearsing these list of questions, and you find an opening and you ask the question, but the question isn't really addressing where they are, and it's really just something you've kind of, you like, got a question that you think is meaningful, but it disconnects with them. Well, once again, they could potentially tune out anything you say beyond that point.

David Bush  9:26  
Yeah, and I think that asking a complex question that requires a complex answer can definitely slow down the process of building that trust, you know, gaining authority, gaining that opportunity to show your credibility, to be able to serve that individual so so many different skill sets. And I don't know if anybody that's watching live has ever played pickleball before, but I'm not an expert pickleball player, fairly good athlete, but I have. Found that people that play pickleball have a lot faster reflex than the people that haven't or don't play pickleball. When the ball comes back and forth, and I caught one, my son in law hit one off my nose because I was close to the net, and he ended up hitting that ball back faster, and I was ready, and yeah, it it smarted it. And I think that that's one of the things that I've learned about getting better at asking questions skillfully and listening carefully is just repetition. And I think that maybe you have some insights to this, Paul, but I think just getting into conversations with people and seeing how much you can you know, kind of play the game and hit the ball back and forth and asking questions that are simple questions to answer, and if you do get a closed ended response that you have another follow up question that gets the ball thrown back to you or paddled back to you in the pickleball analogy. But what has been your best method to get people into the game of just asking questions so that they can get the repetition. You know, I remember Jim Rohn said repetition is the mother of all skill. So how do you gain that expertise, or master craftsmanship, in terms of being an askologist that has a mastery of askology and really knowing a level of questions that just keep the conversations flowing and the deals coming.

Paul Kirch  11:29  
Well, there's a couple of ways I can answer that. The first I'm going to tell you is just become somebody who's curious. You know, if you have natural curiosity and you really care about the person you're trying to engage with then asking questions can just become something natural. I have two teenagers, David and I will tell you that if I didn't ask questions, and I have to be careful of the questions I ask them, because teenagers, you know, often they want to they want to check out. They want to tune out. So if I'm not getting a response, I'll go a different direction, and I'll find questions that allow them to feel like I'm not pressuring them, but allow them to engage. And I think that that's just making questions part of your natural conversation, and becoming more curious is important now on the sales coaching side, when I work with sales teams. I'm a big fan of role playing. You go through the process of developing some questions that you can get comfortable with. I don't ever propose that somebody writes a list of questions, memorizes it, and tries to use those in practice. But if you get in the habit of creating questions and start thinking about question flow, and then get into role playing and rehearse those. Then when you get into real situations, it's, it's easy, because often, often, you know, somebody gets into a sales situation and they haven't rehearsed it, and they go down this practice of trying to, you know, throw questions out. It sometimes becomes unnatural and it doesn't feel feel honest and genuine, and you have to put yourself in a place where it feels genuine.

David Bush  13:11  
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Paul Kirch  15:24  
I mean, I think the more you can make it conversational real, the better. I'll give a interesting example. So years ago, I had a client that was a analyst, and he started his own company. He was very, very data driven guy, very stiff in terms of his personality. He loved his PowerPoint because his PowerPoint made him feel comfortable, and but he wanted to do better job of getting business. And so we talked about the process of asking questions and and one thing that was interesting with him is he just like I said, he always wanted to fall back on this PowerPoint. And I said, Listen, you've got this really interesting opportunity. And at the time, I don't think he could probably do it the way that he did it today. But back then, he wrote a blog post about a very large company, and he referenced one of the leaders in that company. Ironically enough, this guy read the article. He had really good SEO on his blog, and this person reached out to him, scheduled a meeting, and he contacts me, says, Yeah, I've got this meeting. I'm really excited, and I'm gonna, you know. I said, Well, what's your plan? He goes, Well, I'm gonna present my PowerPoint. And then I said, Don't do it. I said, this your first meeting. I said, let's get on this call with this guy and ask some questions and and get him engaged. And he was reluctant, but he did it. And a few days after the meeting, I hadn't heard from him, so I call him, and I said, How you doing? Is I'm okay. And he seemed kind of dismissed and dismissive. And I said, what's going on? I said, How'd the meeting goes? Because I don't know. I guess it went okay. And I said, Well, tell me what happened. He is, well, I got a project out of it. I'm like, wait a minute, it's a fortune 500 company. You got this guy on the first call, and you get a project, and you act like you're upset. And he goes, Well, I don't feel comfortable with it. And I said, why? And he goes, because I didn't really get to talk about my company. I said, What do you mean? He goes, Well, I didn't do my presentation and and I said, you're kind of missing the point here. I said, you got him engaged, and was it? I said, was he doing a lot of the talking? Is Yeah, he talked a lot. And I said, in response to some of the conversation, didn't you get a chance to tell him about what you do? Yeah, I did that, and this guy just totally missed the point. The point is he got the other person talking, and the more that person talked, the more that person found him interesting. And it was really fascinating that he just was kind of missing it. And he ended up getting this project, and it went well, and he ended up getting more business out of it. And it all came because he went through this practice of creating questions. But when we were talking about the questions he had, he really didn't go in with an agenda. He really just started asking some questions, and they had a great back and forth dialog and and the person felt really comfortable. But the more that that person talked, the more this person became interesting, a guy who, on the surface was not the most interesting person became like this really magnetic personality.

David Bush  18:26  
So I've heard the term enthusiasm is a sale is when a transfer of enthusiasm takes place. And that's kind of maybe an old school model, but the last four letters in the word enthusiasm is I A, S, M, and the reference is, I am sold myself. And I think that a lot of newer sales professionals or business owners that are trying to grow revenue and trying to make more sales, they're not fully sold themselves. They have some doubts or limiting beliefs and negative perspectives on their situation, or they've received those negative perspectives or objections and barriers from other people. So they feel like that they have to convince a person to see the differences or see the benefits, and so they're selling and telling, right, rather than asking, sharing, caring and doing more of a consultative model. So I think you're making some great points about just the flip of the script, and how sometimes we can almost get to the point where we like to hear ourselves talk because it makes us feel more confident in our product or services if we feel like we've said enough, whereas in if another person just comes to us and we hear them talking about all their needs and all their wants and all their desires and all their challenges, and we are just asking questions to the point where they're saying, Yeah, I think I need something different, and I'd really like to work with you. Yeah, I didn't do I didn't do my job. I didn't do it the way that I was used to doing it. So there is a flip of a. Grip there, right?

Paul Kirch  20:01  
Well, and I mean no disrespect to anybody that this is their something they enjoy, but it's like the power word of the day, and you're trying to integrate words into your conversation. You want to seem really intelligent, really smart. Well actually, that can be very unengaging and actually very repelling in the wrong situation, and sometimes we want to come across as the smartest person in the room. I don't ever want to be the smartest person in the room. I want to be the one who can, you know, glean something from that person who's smarter than they am. But when it comes to clients, I want them to be the star of the conversation. Now, I don't want them to control the conversation, but I want them to be able to showcase their expertise, and I'm there to provide solutions to their problems, and that's my goal. And I think the more that you can get in that mindset now, I'll tell you a lot of young sales people, or maybe even experienced sales people who maybe they're behind on their quota and they're feeling pressured. They're not willing to take risks. Sometimes you have to be willing to walk away from business to really earn the business. And you know, there are several examples of situations where I've asked very, very challenging questions to somebody like maybe I asked them a question about their budget that others wouldn't ask, but I don't. I'm very strategic with that. If I feel like it's the first call, I've never talked to this person before, I'm not going to ask them to reveal what's behind the curtain. I'm going to get to know them and get them comfortable with me. I want them to trust me, but once I have that trust, then I feel like, okay, if the situation is right and I need that information, I'm going to ask those questions. Can I share another example of that? Absolutely, I learned two really great lessons during this situation, but there was a fairly large research client on the west coast that I was trying to get business from, and we got some smaller projects, but that is one massive media testing project that was probably worth a little over a million dollars a year, and I knew that they were outsourcing, that they were partnering with somebody else, and the company I was with was fully capable of doing this work, and probably better than anybody else in the industry. So I knew if I could uncover some information, I could get a chance to get some of that business away. And first I was working with was really tough. She was originally from Russia. She had this strong personality. She didn't reveal much, but I knew that if I got in front of her, I could ask some questions and get that information. And so I was talking to my manager at the time, and he says, Yeah. He says, great idea. He says, in fact, I'm going to come out to the West Coast. Why don't we go together and get in front of her and and I said, Great. So we go to this meeting, and I'm ready. I'm I know the questions I want to ask. I know, you know the information I want to gather. So we get in the meeting, and I'm and I asked some really very bold questions at the right time. I'm really proud of myself. I'm patting myself on the back. Get out in the parking lot with my manager. And I said, Man, that was such a great conversation, great meeting. And usually he says, Well, tell me about that project that you were trying to get the information on. And I said, Yeah. I said, you know when the opportunity is right, I ask the questions and but she never really answered it. He looks at me. He goes, Oh no, she answered it. You were just too busy talking over the top of her you couldn't wait to keep asking your next question. You didn't even hear what she said. So there I was. I had the opportunity. I asked the hard question, got the answer I needed. I didn't even hear it. I have no clue what she said, because I was too busy worried about the next thing I was going to say. And I think that's another piece that comes into this is asking questions. Having conversations is great, but if you're not really actively listening, you're missing out on everything you really need. Because often their answer, maybe it's the tone of their voice, maybe it's the way that they're expressing something, but often, the answers they give you are the ticket to whether you win that business or whether you just seem like another salesperson that's never gonna get another opportunity

David Bush  24:14  
right, and that emotional intelligence to be able to know that That person is maybe giving a nonverbal cue, or maybe, you know, they say 90% of communication comes from nonverbal communication. So you know, if you're trying to sell something over the phone or trying to transfer enthusiasm over the phone, you're not able to do that unless you're really, truly listening to their responses or their tone of voice, because it again, may not be the right time, but I know that there's probably a better time to really get into the details of questions. So is there a point in time during a conversation where questions are better suited?

Paul Kirch  24:56  
I think that every conversation is different. And I think that if you're if you're forcing questions, then it can seem very impersonal. I think you just need to get comfortable with the person you're talking to. And there's times where I'm not asking a lot of questions, because I can tell the person's not receptive to it, or they're turned off by it, because the minute they start to feel you're a salesperson. It doesn't matter what your label, your title, is, what you call yourself. You know you could be sales leader of the world when you're talking to somebody. You don't want them to feel that way, right? And the minute they start to see you that way, maybe that's like, oh, wait a minute. You know, my spidey senses are kicking in. I need to step back here, because clearly I'm I'm taking this conversation down the wrong path. So I think every conversation is different, but I'd say that make conversations, make questions part of your conversation style, and it becomes natural, and that's what I've done over the years. Just focus on leveraging that curiosity, getting good at asking questions, but also good at reading the other person, because if I can see they're pulling back like so one of the I host a mastermind community, and one of my members in there, he's a amazing guy, but he's a body language expert, and he and I were talking one time. I said, Yeah. I said, you know, I'm when I'm talking to people, sometimes I see them tilt their head, and sometimes even get a smile on their face. And it's like when I first was talking to him, I said, I said, I feel like I'm losing them. And he goes, No, like, is that's what you want. He says, when people start to tilt their head, they're curious, they're they're like, trying to take in what you're saying. And he says, especially if they put that smile on. He says, that's when you know you have them, and it's like, so reading their body language and understanding that how they're reacting to you is something that you need to also lean into as well. You know, are they are they smiling and laughing at the things you say? Are they getting angry or annoyed? Well, take that information and learn to adapt.

David Bush  27:09  
And I know you've got some really good frameworks. And you know, one of the frameworks that I have found to be very beneficial is the concept of salt and light so make things better and brighter. And the way that I've reminded myself of that better and brighter model is the acronym salt, which is, start a conversation by making an observation. Follow up the observation with a question that's easy to start the conversation with, and then you can start working through your six questions that taught you all you knew, what, why, when, where, how and who. And if you move through those questions, obviously there's different questions for different types of relationships or opportunities, but getting down those six open ended questions that lead to more information gathering and learning about the individual's needs, wants and desires, you're listening to their answers so that you can ask those follow up questions, because that, you know, simple question that keeps them talking is, you know, tell me more about that. And why is that? And when did you do that? You know, getting into some specific information that gives you more clarity about the situation in the than the T in salt is tell them a story. Tell them your story. Tell them the the story that is going to resonate with them, that's going to brighten up their perspective of what it is that they can do, what it is that you can do to help them. So that whole concept of salt and light has always kind of been a great reminder for me, but what kind of frameworks have worked for you? And then I'd love to get some questions from you that you're really finding a lot of success with inside of your sales coaching and sales training.

Paul Kirch  28:48  
Well, I'm gonna approach it a little differently. I'm gonna tell you what the four question types that askology centers around, because it kind of is really the way to I find drive through a lot of conversations. So the first one is, I call it guiding questions. And guiding questions are, they're they're like a leading question that allows you to really leverage your information, and instead of just pitching finding a way of fitting into the conversation. So you might ask them questions that you already know the answer to, or you you kind of have an idea of what they're going to say, and then when they respond now you have permission to talk about your services and solutions in a very impactful way, because you're just basically responding to what they said. The other type of question is investigative questions, and these are the ones that we don't necessarily have the answer to. But if we have that information, we'll say that it's we want to know what the size of their budget is. You know, it's like their advertising budget, or whatever budget they have this year. Maybe that's the question. That's the type of question we want. Once we have that information. And now we know what services to offer them, because it's like, well, if they only have $100 to spend, it's one thing, but if they have a million dollars to spend, now all of a sudden, we can tailor our offering accordingly, and then in terms of getting to know them and really connecting with them at an emotional level. Like I said, all buying decisions take place in emotional place. So empathy questions, you know, maybe they're facing some real challenges internally in the company. Maybe they're having some layoffs. Maybe they're, you know, that they're struggling financially. Maybe they've child or filed for Chapter 11, and they're going through this protective stage of bankruptcy, and they're trying to get out of it. So maybe you can tap into some things around those areas that you know are stressful to them. It allows you to connect with them, and if it's done right, it allows you to really be somebody that's seen as like, oh, you care about them. It's like, Oh, wow. This person really seems to understand my business. They understand my challenge, and they can, they can get there. And then the fourth question type is the one that's probably, you know, you have to be careful with but instigating questions, you know, perhaps they had a vendor that just botched a job with them. Maybe they had somebody that came in and and did a horrible job, and they happened to reveal us. It's like, Well, tell me, how did that make you feel when they blew that? Because it sounds like it really hurt your team. Oh, yeah, I have no idea that the internal strife we were facing. It's everyone was angry, and they were all angry at me. Now, a sudden, you've got this deep connection with them, and they go, Paul really understands me. He gets my business. So those four question types, if you can master those and really start thinking about it's like, that's how you really break down those barriers. The guiding questions allow you to drive the question the conversation where you want it. Investigative questions help you uncover those things you need. Empathy allows you to connect with a deep level. And then the instigating questions are the ones that you know you don't miss the opportunity to tap into areas where, man, they're really frustrated. And, you know, I'm not trying to poke the stick in anybody, you know, I was jokingly call it poking the bear. But sometimes that's the area where they really have the biggest frustration. And if you can be the person who helps them solve that, that's a beautiful thing, you know, I can think of an example on the instigating question, where, one time I was talking to somebody who just had a vendor watch something, and I asked about, you know, what that made them feel like, and once they started to reveal, I'm like, Well, you know, we actually put a process in place a few years ago because we had something similar happen in our company. We have a process in place that prevents that from ever happening. Well, now they know they've got somebody they can go to that's never going to put them in that situation again. So that's it's very powerful, yeah.

David Bush  32:59  
And as as you're naming off those different categories. So it was, it was guiding, investigating, empathy, empathizing, or empathy, yeah, empathy and then instigating, you know, a person that's going to go into battle, or a person that's going to go into a competition playing, you know, tennis, or anything that's going to be hitting the ball back and forth, they're going to go in prepared with their opportunities to play the game, right? And I like to think of it as a game. I'm former football player. I don't think about it as dominating the competition. I think about it as just playing the game of just hitting the ball back and forth, where, if you hit the ball back and forth enough, it's fun, you know? It's fun to be able to be in the game. It's not feeling like that, you know, that person, one person, is just all one sided. So I'm curious, is there any questions that Paul Kerch and all of his wisdom and experience and expertise, they're kind of like secret weapons that you could share with us, that you're like, I really like asking this question, because it oftentimes opens.

Paul Kirch  34:06  
I'm going to give you one, one good example, because I think that this is was an opportunity and a time which was really a growth period for me. There was a time I would not have asked this question, but one time I was invited to come in and present to a company in Denver. And I go, and I'm thinking, I'm meeting with two people. I'd been talking to these two people, and they both seemed to really we connected, and they were interested in the company I was working with at the time. And I show up, and I walk into this, they had, like, their own little Amphitheater in their office was really nice. And I walk in there, there's about 30 people in this room, including the CEO. I'm kind of, like, taken back. I was not expecting this, but I, you know, had a presentation, and based off the conversations I had with these two people, we touched on several areas that they had concerns. And they thought that we could help serve, and so that's what I tailored the conversation around. And I'm up there doing the old, you know, death by PowerPoint and and I get done with the meeting, and I'm feeling pretty good about the conversation, and I asked if there was any questions. And the CEO stands up, and he comes over. He shakes my hand. He goes, Oh, that was really good, Paul. He goes, I think we're, we're happy with our current supplier, though. And I was kind of like, Oh, okay. I was not expecting that response at first. I wasn't expecting all these people in this room. And there was a time I would have walked out of that room with my tail between my legs and feeling like I failed, and I stopped, and I said, let me ask you a question. You You have all these people sitting in this room. You dedicated an hour here, and I've been talking to your team for a few weeks. That's a lot of time you invested. Clearly, you're looking for something. What is it you were hoping to hear today? And next thing you know, he starts opening up about things that they hadn't gotten from other suppliers and things they were looking for. And I'm like, Okay, well, I didn't realize that was what you were looking for. Based off of that, here's what we can do. And I started talking about other solutions that one question just being in a place where I didn't miss the opportunity changed everything. And it was a company that I had not gotten a single dime of business to. And if I would have walked out of there with his response that he was happy with the current supplier, I would have never gotten business from him. They ended up becoming one of my largest clients at one point, just because I stopped and asked the question, what is it you're looking for? What were you missing? Because they were obviously hoping to to get something out of that meeting. And it wasn't just a curiosity thing, it was they were looking to solve some solutions. But, you know, I probably wasn't fully prepared at the time. I didn't have all the answers, but in that moment, it was really a transformative conversation that that changed everything in my career.

David Bush  37:07  
That's great. Well, I know this is this show is all about building a better playbook. And so hopefully everybody just took a jotter downer there and said, you know, hey, what were you looking for? You know, that open ended question that really helps them to just disclose what it is that they're truly looking for. I have two that I have found to be the most beneficial when it comes to opening up conversations that oftentimes lead me to their greatest frustration or their greatest pain point or their greatest pleasure, which is what's the one thing? If you could do one thing, or if you could remove one barrier in 2026 that would help you to achieve the goals that you had set, what's that one barrier in your sales process? Or what's that one barrier with the vendor that you're currently working with? And if you eliminate all of the other options and you just say, what's the one thing? Sometimes you'll get the one thing that comes to their mind, but oftentimes you'll get that biggest issue. And then the next question is the follow up question, which I love to ask, which is, Paul, if I could show you a way to do X, Y and Z, whatever it is that they have told you that they're looking to do, or what they want to be do, and have, would you be open to and then just a really easy question to say yes to? Would you be open to exploring the options? Would you be open to receiving a quote with some options that I believe could help you to achieve X, Y and Z? Whatever they said was important to them. Those two questions have just been so beneficial to me, because it doesn't feel like that. I'm trying to convince somebody. I'm just asking the question, What's one thing, and then I just move it to the next stage, which is, if I could show you a way to do what you want to do, X, Y and Z, would you be open to? And that really helps me to decide if they're actually somebody that's interested, or if they were just curious. Because oftentimes, if they say, No, I'm not ready to do that doesn't mean that the deal is dead, but it means oftentimes that they're not ready, or it's just not the right timing. So any other tips or tactics that you could share with

Paul Kirch  39:17  
people, just say that what you said there is very, very, very powerful, because we call it a verbal contract. When you get a yes from somebody on something like that, you now have permission. And I think that's an important piece, getting their permission to talk about your solutions, getting permission to share why they should trust you. That's very powerful. You know, my goal in every situation is to get to the point where they have given me permission to help them. And often, you know, we put ourselves in situations where we're trying to sell somebody and we just want to get that message across. I can't count the number of times I've gotten on a. Zoom call with somebody, and they just jump into a pitch, and I'm like, warm me up first. You know, it's like you haven't even uncovered why I should be talking to you. You haven't put me in a situation where I trust you and you're over here trying to sell me. And I think that's the missed opportunity. So look for those opportunities, for that verbal contract where you get the yes that allows you to to go forward, because without that, sometimes you're you're really forcing things, and that is extremely alienating.

David Bush  40:33  
Yeah, and we all know from our experience and previous testimonials of other people that have gone before us that it is the Speed of Trust, right? Stephen Covey's son wrote that book on the Speed of Trust. And I just really love the concept about, you know, accelerating the Speed of Trust and your questions can actually accelerate trust without having to tell them all of your qualifications and all of your skills. And, you know, designations. It's not those things that oftentimes build trust. It's just the questions that you ask, the information that you provide based upon the questions that you ask. Because, you know, like doctors, they get sued all the time for malpractice, but business owners and sales professionals, they oftentimes misdiagnose, they, you know, misrepresent. They tell people things that don't necessarily match what it is that they're looking for or what they need, because they're just in a hurry. They're in a hurry to get a sale, or they're in a hurry to get the information that they feel like that they need so that they can develop a quote and a proposal, rather than seeking to understand before being understood. So I really appreciate that insights. Anything else you want to add to that?

Paul Kirch  41:46  
Paul, I mean, just that your job in any situation where you're trying to sell your goods is to really uncover, how do your solutions help them? You know? I mean, listen, there's people out there that sell all day long, that would just their their goal is to just make a few dollars off for you and move on to the next transaction. I've never been that way. I've always have to believe in what I'm selling, and I have to believe that I'm doing good for someone else, and that's just something that without it, I've just never felt comfortable pushing something. But you know, sometimes we feel like we're we're trying to sell somebody a bridge, when what they really need is a door on their house. And we need to find out, what are they really need, what's, what's the emotional challenge that they're having that you can solve, and maybe you're not even the right solution. I remember years ago, I was working for a company that sold indoor recreation equipment. I was pretty avid pool player, and I got the opportunity to work for this place that sold pool tables and other rec equipment and and I'd have people come in, and they would we were carrying a brand that was, it's a very widely known brand today, but back then, it didn't have the prestige that Brunswick did. Brunswick had been around, you know, for over 100 years, and it was a brand that a lot of people knew, but at the time, Brunswick was not putting out the best quality equipment. Their frames were susceptible to warping, and we had a much better product. And people would come in and like they didn't recognize the brand and and sometimes they would, I'd say, Listen, you know, if you're if you're interested, Brunswick is just down the street. And I would send them, I'd tell them, Go to Brunswick. But when you go there, look at this, and look at this on the frames, and you'll see what I'm talking about. And you know, if you find that that's a better product for you great if not, come back most time, they would never leave. And if they did leave, they always came back, because they would see exactly what I was talking about, and they'd find that they were buying a better product. And sometimes you have to be willing to walk away from the business to get their business. And sometimes I'm not going to be the best supplier. I might recommend somebody else. I have, I have sent people to other companies because it wasn't the right fit. And I think it's okay to walk away from business that's not a good fit, because at the end of the day, you're serving them. And sometimes those people will come back anyway, you know, because they they trust you, they see it's like, wow, this person was willing to do that. They were in it for the right reasons. And even if they don't consciously know that psychologically, even subconsciously, they do recognize that that was different, they didn't try and sell me when they had the opportunity. Well, I wasn't the right person for

David Bush  44:38  
them, right? Yeah, true probe and oftentimes those good questions will actually shift somebody from a priced focus mentality to an actual value focused mentality, because they feel like that. They're being understood. They feel like that, they're being consulted to make a quality decision based upon their needs. And having the respect from the person that's talking to them to not feel like that they're trying to manipulate them into a buying decision about their services, especially if it's not the right fit. So yeah, we're right on the same page. Is there any other questions or strategies or tactics that you think that those that are listening or watching today would benefit from, when it comes down, yeah, creating questions to get bigger and better deals.

Paul Kirch  45:26  
Well, this, it's, it's funny, even though we're talking about askology, I'm going to give you something else that was very transformative in my career at a mentor that I worked under that was it was a great leader, and he always said, be a resource. And at the time, you know, I thought, well, be a resource. Yeah, I'm gonna do my best to make sure that my clients are happy and they're taken care of. But he wanted us go further and and I had the opportunity one time to I was talking to this company, and they said the guy was speaking with says, Yeah. He says, next time you're in LA. I was living in Seattle at the time. He says, come down and let's meet. He goes, I've got some potential opportunities, and I go sit down with him at this luncheon. And I had scheduled some other meetings. So it wasn't just for him, but a big part of it was that meeting, and we're sitting there at the lunch, and he said, Because, probably because I feel like I've misled you. And I said, why? And he says, Well, I really don't have any projects coming up. And he says, I'm because I'm looking at leaving. And I thought, you know, a lot of people in the research industry, you're really connected. Maybe you could help me. And my first instinct, David, was to be mad at this guy, but I thought, I'll be a resource. And I'm like, okay, so he starts talking to me, and I said, Well, do you have a resume? He says, Yeah. He says, I can email it to you, but I brought a copy to he's looking at his resume. I'm like, Huh? I know somebody who needs this guy. So this this person's background. He had worked in for a game manufacturing company, and I knew somebody that had a research company that they specialized in doing gaming research, and so after the meeting, I called this person. I said, Hey. I said, I've got an introduction to make. I just had lunch with this gentleman, and I think he'd be a great fit. Got the interview, got hired. That person followed me for years, and I chose to be a resource, and that resource led to me getting so much business because he would refer me to people all the time. He wanted to go out of his way to always help me, because I'd helped him in his life and his career. And so there's lots of examples I could give, but you know, it comes down to whether you're asking questions, whether you're talking about your solutions, whether you're just there having a conversation with somebody at a networking event. If you can find ways to be a resource to them, it can go from you being a person can serve them on a project to somebody that they will follow for years. And I still have clients. I have a client that I worked with probably, I want to say, 15 years ago, and to the day, I don't have any offerings that would support them, but they still, occasionally, I'm in the blue will call me and ask me a question. They'll say, Hey, do you know who would be a good fit? Or do you have any thoughts on this? And it's like, it's just that relationship paid off dividends, just because I chose to be selfless in my approach, instead of selfish, and I chose to be a resource.

David Bush  48:32  
Yeah, I love that. And there was a book, gosh, probably been 20 some odd years ago, Thomas Stanley, who wrote The Millionaire Next Door. He wrote a book called networking with the affluent, and he talked about how people that wanted to build a relationship with affluent or big deal type of individuals, they would become more valuable to those individuals so they would fulfill different roles, like you'd be a revenue enhancer, where you'd help them to generate more revenue. You'd help them become by being an advocate. You'd bet you'd benefit by being a mentor. You'd give a resource. You'd be a person that recommended books or videos or audio cassettes, or audio cassettes nowadays, you know, downloadable resources on Audible or things of that nature. And so just being a great resource, and sometimes that off question that's like, Hey, Paul, is there anything else that you're trying to accomplish in 2026 that I could be a resource on? Is that that, in itself, could be the thing that wins you over, a new deal, a bigger deal, a better deal, because you went above and beyond what's usual, regular and customary, which is the definition of extraordinary. So if you want to have extraordinary success, talk do things that are extraordinary, that go above and beyond, which can start with the four types of questions I'm going to try to remember them. So don't, don't, don't. Hold them. Hold me back here, don't I? Rush to conclusion. So the first one was going to be guiding questions, the second one was investigative questions, the third one was empathy questions. No, it was, yeah, sympathy questions. And then the fourth one was instigating questions. And so hopefully everybody that's watching or listening to this show is thinking about those questions, and then they're also asking the question, Where can I learn more about this? So talk a little bit more about your mastermind groups and the sales coaching and resources that you provide.

Paul Kirch  50:31  
Yeah, absolutely. Well, a great way of getting comfortable with four question types is to download the eBook that's at askology method.com and I'm sure you'll put that in the notes, but askology method.com you can go download a free copy of the askology ebook. It's a great way of of getting comfortable with those four question types. And then, of course, if you want to talk further, you can connect with me, and we can go from there. And then I've hosted a mastermind community. Well, it started in 2014 I hosted a live radio show in Dallas, and then that later became a top 10 in business podcast show, and then we turned it into a mastermind community back in 2021 and we have meeting every Friday. We have incredible resources. And boss Academy has been it's been a life changer for me, because I went through a dark period with a divorce, and then covid hit and and that community has has been a place where it allowed me to actually formulate the concept of ascology method. I mean, ascology method was never a formal product until boss Academy. It was just something I did in my coaching and training. But you know that group has actually been in place, incredible ideation place, so, yeah, box academy.com if you want to check that out as well, wow.

David Bush  51:51  
And then askology method.com to download the free ebook. Is that? Right?

Paul Kirch  51:56  
Yeah, then, of course, you can check out paulkirch.com if you want to learn a little bit more about me and my background?

David Bush  52:02  
Yeah, we'll put all the links in the show notes and make sure that everybody has these. And if you were watching live or watching this as a recording on social media, we'd love to see a comment with your best takeaway or your best question. Just share some feedback in the comments. Share some feedback in the chat. We'd love to be able to see what everybody's best takeaway was, and Paul, thanks so much for some of your best, best stuff with us today, and we look forward to having everybody asking better questions going into the new year

Paul Kirch  52:32  
well, and I want to give a plug to you, because I will tell you that your solutions@bdr.ai and It's been amazing what you guys are doing the LinkedIn integration I've been it's been a lot of fun to use it and and I look forward to exploring more how we can work together this year.

David Bush  52:51  
Yeah, absolutely. Asking questions in your digital outreach is probably one of the best things you can do to build new relationships using email or LinkedIn messaging and in you. So everything that you talked about today is a lot of the things that we train and teach on inside of bdr.ai is helping people to ask better questions and not listening but reading the messages back so that you know how you can move that relationship forward and not just spamming everybody in inside your LinkedIn connections or email to try to give them your appointment booking link. That's not the strategy that's working right now.

Paul Kirch  53:29  
So, and I will tell you that, let me add one thing, because I think it's relevant to whether you're asking questions on a zoom call in person or on written communication like email, ask yourself, How would you respond to that you know, as if you come across as if you're salesy or alienating? Be honest with yourself, sometimes we don't take the time and effort to look at what we've said or written. I used to record my conversations so I could listen to them and hear myself. And I used to do the ums and ahs and all those things, and it drove me crazy. And I'd hear myself on these recordings like it just would cringe. But over time, it allowed me to become a better communicator, and it also allowed me to reflect on, gosh, why did I ask that question, that question was just not the right type of thing to say. Or, you know, why did I react that way? You know, if we can be honest with ourselves, that's how we grow.

David Bush  54:30  
Yeah, absolutely. Well, as we wrap up here today, I'd like to leave everybody with a question that only you can answer to yourself, and that is, what's the one thing that you're going to take action on based on watching this presentation or listening to it, every one of us can just do one thing, and if you do one thing, and you consistently implement it, and you stay committed to it, this next year, can be absolutely extraordinary in winning bigger and better deals. So Paul, thanks so much for your time. Everybody. Thanks for watching and share this video with other people. Well, if you found this bit to be beneficial, thanks everybody. Thanks for tuning in to the Business Builders playbook. If this episode gave you some plays that you can start running in your business today, hit subscribe and share with another revenue leader who's tired of the pipeline grind. Building Predictable Revenue isn't something you figure out alone. Whether you're looking to automate your prospecting with bdr.ai or you just want to talk through the growth challenges you're facing, reach out. We help business leaders just like you, to build systems that actually scale. And if you're ready to stop being your company's Highest Paid Prospector, let's have a conversation. Reach out to us@bdr.ai until next time. Let's keep building you.